The Holy Spirit is the peace – John 14:26-27

John 14:26-27 (NIV) - 26 But the Advocate {G3875 – paraklētos = Counsellor, Helper, Intercessor, Strengthener, Advocate, Pleader}, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

Different translations use different word for G3875 – parakletos.  In the above passage, my own preference is that, Counsellor is the more appropriate word.

What does this passage teach us?
1.            After Jesus’ death and resurrection, the era that we are all in, He no longer would walk the earth like He used to, as a man; in His place, the Father God would send the Holy Spirit to us.

2.            So, the God with us - Emmanuel, did NOT end in that era when Jesus lived and died; God with us, continues through the giving of the Holy Spirit, to be with us.  The Holy Spirit is also the Spirit of Christ or Jesus, so, in actual fact, although Jesus was no longer with us, as a man, He continues to be with us, by His Spirit – the Spirit of Christ or the Holy Spirit. 

3.            Jesus was the Helper/Counsellor for the disciples of that era when Jesus walked the earth.  In the same way, the Holy Spirit is the Helper/Counsellor to us all; only that this Helper/Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, is NOT in the form of a man, but of spirit.

4.            We have to listen to the Holy Spirit.  In those days, the disciples had to listen to who?  Jesus, their Helper or Counsellor.  For us, who do we have to listen to?  The Holy Spirit.  Jesus made it clear that the Holy Spirit would be the one to teach us all things (of the Faith), and would remind us (of the same). 

Listen to the Word or the Holy Spirit?  The Holy Spirit is always in agreement with the Godhead, and so, He does NOT contradict the Word or Jesus. He would also never contradict God the Father.  John 16:12-15 said this:

12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

The Holy Spirit does NOT invent truths on His own; He hears from the Godhead and tells it to us; He takes from Jesus, and reveals it to us; He knows the mind of God (1 Cor 2:11), and so, can accordingly, instruct or help us.  He would only speak the truths.  The truths are always the same, the truths of the Holy Spirit are the truths of Jesus, and are the truths of the Father God.

5.            The Holy Spirit is given or sent in the name of Jesus.  Jesus made it clear that the Holy Spirit would be sent by the Father God (upon His [Jesus] leaving [resurrection]) in the name of Jesus.  In other words, one goes, another comes, but the latter comes in the name of the former.  What does it mean?  It means you don’t get the Holy Spirit unless you have embraced Jesus.  We have to accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour (enter into salvation, we say), before, and at which point, the Holy Spirit is given to indwell us (Eph 1:13-14).  All believers have a deposit of the Holy Spirit in them.  It is NOT some has, and some has NOT. 

The disciples then, had Jesus; the difference was that some of the disciples listened to Jesus more than the others (one, Judas Iscariot, was often NOT listening).  Just as Jesus did NOT then disown Judas Iscariot, and cast him off, the Holy Spirit is still with those who did NOT always listen to Him; only that those who do NOT always listen, may be more vulnerable to be ensnared than those who listen (it does NOT mean a believer cannot be apostate, but one does NOT get disowned easily).

6.            The Holy Spirit is the peace Jesus gives to us. 

Now, there are those who interpret v27 in such a way as to say, Jesus took His peace and gave it to the disciples; and for us, He has done the same – took His peace and given it to us. Such then went on, to say, if you do NOT feel the peace, it is you have let your heart be troubled or you are afraid – that is the trouble (with you)!  Such also said, if you failed both – let your heart be troubled and you are afraid, you are “dead meat” – no peace-lo!  Support citations included these verses: we are to guard our heart (Pro 4:23); we are NOT given a spirit of timidity (2 Tim 1:7) (these 2 texts are of themselves, no problem, of course).

On the contrary, the revelation I have, is peace is NOT had, that way.  Peace is NOT had like: You are troubled, and you are afraid, for you have, say, did something wrong, like you bribed a government official, and the entire process was video-recorded by someone with a smart phone, and I now, give my peace to you, and you can be at peace.  Neither is it that, the day before, I met you and I gave my peace to you, and so, despite what you have done (wrong), you can never be out of sort (NOT at peace), and never be afraid. 

On the surface, such a preacher purportedly said that it is NOT God’s fault - that it is NOT that, the peace God gave, does NOT work; but such has wrongly taught the ways of God, insulted God even (that, God’s righteousness is that way).  In addition, such also introduced unwarranted mystery into the ways of God, bringing confusion even, to people – “imagine, he can still stay at peace and NOT be afraid (having done a wrong); ah, how come I can’t!”  Please-lah, if you have done wrong, you are supposed to be out of sort, or lose peace, and be afraid, until …… 

It is funny when such teaching comes from the mouth of overly grace preachers who kept banging on grace and no works, and then, said  things do NOT work out for you because you have NOT done this (NOT let your heart NOT be troubled) or have done that - be afraid).  There is a part we have to play, alright, but it is NOT simply you NOT let your heart be troubled or be NOT afraid, regardless!

When we, and it is right for us to, read vv26 & 27 together, the peace, Jesus was referring to (that He said He was giving to the disciples then, and also to us, now), is the Holy Spirit.  The peace of Jesus is the Holy Spirit, which is also His Spirit (Spirit of Christ), and so, it was correct for Jesus to say, “Peace I leave with you (after introducing the Holy Spirit in the preceding verse [v26]).  My peace I give you (Holy Spirit is Jesus’ peace, and is His Spirit).”  Was it wrong for Jesus to say, “I do NOT give you as the world gives.”? Jesus was absolutely justified to say that, because (1) the world cannot give you the Holy Spirit; (2) the world does NOT give by grace, which Jesus did and does; the world demands merit (the Holy Spirit is given us, by grace); and (3) the world does NOT give peace by following the desires of the Spirit, for desires of the world (flesh-gratifying), and the desires of the Spirit are contrary (Gal 5:17).

The desires of the Spirit are to please God, and the Spirit is already given us, indwelling every believer; and if we listen to the Spirit (or be led by Him), we will have the peace – the peace, in and of the Spirit.  Now, the Holy Spirit is indwelling every believer, but the question is whether each of us is allowing Him to live through us, working His desires, which are to please God, through us.  Only when that happens, that the peace, in and of the Spirit, becomes ours.

Jesus is the Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6).  Through Him we are reconciled with God.  Yes, with reconciliation with God, we have peace.  Yes, Jesus gave us peace that way, if we believe and trust in Him that His works wrought us reconciliation with God.  When we were yet reconciled, we have NOT true peace, because we were “out of sort” with God, and we are out of sort with God, firstly because we were NOT cleansed of our state – the sinner state, and secondly, the propensity to sin, got the better of us, and we had sinned, and those (filth)needed to be dealt with, and thirdly, our mind and heart were NOT set to resist sins, and be inclined to embrace holiness, and thus, the righteousness of God.  In other words, having been reconciled with God, moving forward, we need to be in agreement with God, still. No one can give you true peace if you want NOT to be in agreement with God, even when you are a believer.

In His earthly ministry, Jesus was always with peace; how do explain that peace of Jesus?  Consistent with what is explained here concerning the Holy Spirit is the peace, Jesus’ peace comes from the Holy Spirit, comes from agreement with God, and comes from a life of wanting to please God – doing God’s will.  Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit (at His water baptism), before His earthly ministry.  The Holy Spirit is the one who knows the mind of God (1 Cor 2:11), and Jesus was full of the Spirit.  The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father God, and consistent with what Jesus said - that all that belongs to the Father has been given Him (John 16:15; John 3:32-35), the Spirit of God (the Holy Spirit) was given Him, Jesus; and so, it was correct to say that the Spirit of Christ is the same Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit  (For full exposition of this, read “Are these the same, the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, and the Spirit of Christ?). The Holy Spirit is peace, for He is always in agreement with the Godhead and He always acts to please the Godhead, and so, when we listen to the Holy Spirit (or be led by Him), we too, would be in agreement with God, and please God, and have peace.

7.            To stay in the state of peace, we have to listen to the Holy Spirit or be led by Him.  This is already explained above  - point 6.  When 1 Cor 2:16 said that “We have the mind of Christ”, where is this mind of Christ?  No, it is NOT our mind is now replaced by the mind of Christ; the mind of Christ is in the person of the Spirit of Christ or the Holy Spirit.

8.            Know the right thing, do the right thing, and then rest in Him, and you need NOT be troubled, of heart or be afraid.  Jesus was telling His disciples ahead of time, so that with right knowledge, understanding, and doing the right things, His disciples could rise above the fleshy tendency to be insecure and afraid, when uncertainties would confront them subsequently. 

This “NOT let your heart be troubled, and be NOT afraid” is as simple as that; NOT to be expounded to the tune of “I am superior to you-le, I can maintain peace and NOT be afraid, regardless; you cannot-le!” or “I told you so-what, you let your heart be troubled, and be afraid – that is the problem (with you), you got to tell yourself, NOT to be troubled, of heart, and be NOT afraid, regardless.  I told you many times-right, why can’t you just do it – don’t let your heart be troubled and don’t be afraid!”

Through these words of Jesus, we are to understand that despite Jesus is NOT with us, in person, as a man, we are NOT without His counsel through the Holy Spirit or His Spirit, which the Father would give to indwell anyone who would come into salvation.  Jesus has lived as a man, and He can empathize with us, and knows what is that which is precious to the well-being of a man – peace.  Jesus would give the means to that (peace), and that means is the indwelling Holy Spirit.  When we be led by the Holy Spirit (no wonder He is called our Helper/Counsellor), we will have the peace, in and of the Holy Spirit.  When we have knowledge of this, and do the right things (practise righteousness) and then rest in Him, we need NOT be troubled, of heart, and need NOT be afraid.

In simple terms, it is heretic teaching to tell people they can get the state of their heart NOT be troubled and be NOT afraid, simply by “psycho-ing” themselves with “My heart is NOT troubled, and I am NOT afraid”, when they are NOT doing or going to do what is/are consistent with the desires of the Holy Spirit (which is the same as the desires of God or the Lord or the Word).

Peace (G1515 – eirēnē) is having shades of meaning; and one of it, is this - felicity.  What is felicity? It is the state of blissfulness or blessedness.  This state obviously includes tranquillity (or peace) and joy.  So, in Scripture, peace could include joy; and we also find joy being associated with the Holy Spirit or that both words were used together with the Holy Spirit.  For example, Romans 14:17 – 18 … the kingdom of God is about righteousness, and peace and joy of the Holy Spirit, and those who serve God in this way, please God, and find agreement with men.  This text of the Book of Romans is therefore, one of the most important indications of how a Christian life is to be lived. 

Matt 6:33 gives us the saying to seek first, God’s kingdom and His righteousness, and this Romans text further tells us who is the bearer of (having) God’s righteousness, and how we live out that righteousness.  The Holy Spirit holds the key; when we let Him, the Holy Spirit, lives through us, have His ways in us, His peace and His joy will be ours, and our lives would be pleasing to God. 

What about the Word?  Yes, the Word is key, too, but the Word turns rhema by the Holy Spirit.  I venture to say, the difference between general legalistic OT obeying of the laws and commandments of God, and the NT obeying of the laws and commandments, which is still commanded, is that the latter is heeding the Word, in and through the Holy Spirit.  The contrast is that the motive of the Holy Spirit is always the same – loving and pleasing God (there is always love of the Holy Spirit for God, for within the Triune God, there is perfect love of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit in manifest).  The NT call of obedience to laws and commandments is “loving and pleasing God” based.

A simple metaphor – felicity is had when one is loving and pleasing another.  In fact, felicity is had for both the giver and the receiver of such manifest affection.  Isn’t right, when you love someone and manage to please the person, you (the giver) are very happy, and the person (the receiver) would be very happy too! It is “no sweat to live on bread and water alone”, in such a state, goes the common love-saying, is it not?  What more, your lover is the El Shaddai!

Before we end, let me talk a little more about the scenario of “But I am in a difficult situation, with uncertainty, trial and tribulation even, can I still be with peace?”  The point is that Jesus was telling the Disciples ahead of such.  In other words, it was so that the Disciples would be of peace when the time (bad time) came.  So, what was said was NOT just meant for swell circumstance!

There are those who argue there is NOT a single thing a believer need be bothered about (well, the same people could still be telling, you should NOT let your heart be trouble or be afraid! Is that NOT doing something; how contradictory!); God would automatically take care of everything, and voila, you have peace (if you believe it so – automatic and voila!).  Just say your Sinner’s Prayer (to enter into salvation), and just bask all the way, in grace, and peace (and joy) is yours and NOT leave you!?  No.

You will NOT get caught in lousy circumstances, bad times, difficult times, afflictions, trials, persecutions?  No, there is no such promise of easy and swell life all the way, till you pass on.  Live life as you like?  No, you cannot; please, liberty in Christ Jesus, does NOT mean you can do what you like!  We can get into nasty situation due to our fault, including sinning, or we can get into the same, through no fault of ours (someone stabbed you in the back, for example); what do you do, in difficult situation and in the uncertainty of the situation?  You begin to be trouble of heart, and afraid; losing peace, what do you do?  Do nothing, like they tell you?  No.

When you have walked into a deep quick-sand (as a metaphor), do you do nothing?  No.  Yah-what, people say, to do nothing, don’t move.  You can do that, do nothing; given enough time, you will still go under, under your own weight!  I am NOT going to teach people how to get out of a real deep quick-sand, but there are things you could do and should do to get yourself out (shift to buoyancy posture for example, is one thing to do; you don’t know what that is, just ignore!).  Now, can you do nothing?  You can, if you know someone is on hand to help you or you are expecting someone to come by. So, what must you do when you are in deep shit!  Call on God (or Jesus) or the Holy Spirit.  It is NOT you do nothing, there is a thing all of us can do, and that is we pray, and ask for Divine Help.  Phil 4:6 reads:

Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God (Phil 4:6).

You need to do that.   And if you get into the deep shit, because you are in disagreement with God, His Word or His ways, you got to reflect on that; repent, confess, and ask God for forgiveness, and with a humble and contrite heart, ask God for help.  One just cannot demand God to help while insisting he is right and God is wrong; and that he would still do whatever that had caused him to be in the deep shit, in first place, when he gets out!  People like to claim verse 7, without taking verse 6 above.  Phil 4:7 reads:

And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus (Phil 4:7).

If you don’t get right with God, that peace of God which you received at your conversion, just is NOT sustained.  Can it be refreshed? Yes, but if you are NOT going to get back right with God, or NOT wanting to be led by the Holy Spirit, you are hampering it.  Sure, God is love, and there is grace of God, but God cannot be mocked, the love of God for men is love unto righteousness (`ahab love), and the grace of God is NOT for us to profane, and men’s volition is NOT meant to be over-written by God all time.  For all of these, one needs to gain understanding, and meditate on them to appreciate how they all bear on our living on earth.

Anthony Chia, high.expressions

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Are these the same, the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, and the Spirit of Christ?

Firstly, is God and the Spirit of God the same?
Yes, and no!

Why the “no”?

For the "yes", I will just give one text, John 4:24a - "God is spirit"; but why the “no”?   The “no”, is no in the sense that God and the Spirit of God can exist separate.  What this means is that, God is in Heaven, yet His Spirit can be all over the place, in the heavens, on the earth, or in the depths of the earth.  In other words, there is NOT necessarily anything wrong with statements containing both God and His Spirit as separates; and there are scriptures like that in the Word. 

Can God come “in person”, NOT as His Spirit, to earth, or meet a person? 

Yes, an example in Scripture is Moses meeting God in the desert, at the place of the burning bush.  Another is the case of Moses meeting God on Mount Sinai.  One can also say that God was in the Tabernacle, during the Exodus.  Is it not right that we understand, in present day, God is in Heaven, yet His Spirit is present on earth, all over the places, literally! 

Why do I start with this? 

It is because later on, we can appreciate that the Spirit of Christ and Christ, too, are possible to be separate – Christ Jesus is now seated with God in Heaven, and the Spirit of Christ is here, with us, in fact, indwelling us!

We will NOT go into the Triune God theology as such, but it suffices to say that the case of the Spirit of God, is like that of the Son (of God); just like Jesus is said to be begotten by God as His one and only Son, and so, the Son is God, and yet the Son is separate in personhood (when the Son, Jesus, was on earth as the man-Jesus, God [or Father God] is in Heaven), the Spirit of God is with separate personhood, even as God is spirit.

So, God (Father God), the Spirit of God, and the Son, Jesus Christ, are three (personhood), and yet One God.

Secondly, is the Spirit of God and the Holy Spirit the same?

The answer is Yes.

Apostle Peter equated the two -

Acts 5:3-4 - 3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

Who do we receive as the indwelling one, upon entry into salvation? –

It said in Scripture to be the Holy Spirit or Spirit of God.  In other words, the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of God are used interchangeably.  The following scriptures illustrate this:

1 Cor 2:12a - What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God,

Eph 1:13-14 - 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him {Jesus} with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Cor 1:21-22 -  21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Cor 5:5 -  Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Eph 2:21-22 - 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

1 Cor 6:19 - Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

It is very clear from the above, the Spirit of God or His Spirit and the Holy Spirit are referring to same personhood.  We can use all the three names interchangeably.

The late Andrew Murray taught about this, and said along these lines -

“Through the Old Testament He was always called the Spirit of God or the Spirit of the Lord {LORD}; the name of Holy Spirit He did not yet bear as His own proper name.' It is only in connection with the work He has to do in preparing the way for Christ, and a body for Him, that the proper name comes into use (Luke 1: 15, 35).”  { Luke 1:15 is about John the Baptist was to be filled with the Holy Spirit before he was born; and Luke 1:35, about the Holy Spirit coming upon Mary (mother of Jesus) to bring about the conceiving of Jesus, by the Holy Spirit.}

My remark on this is that OT Scripture did reference the Spirit of God as the Holy Spirit.  Examples included these:

Ps 51:11 (NIV) - Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit {holy spirit – KJV} from me. Isaiah 63:10-11 (NIV) – 10 Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit {holy Spirit – KJV}. So he turned and became their enemy and he himself fought against them. 11 Then his people recalled the days of old, the days of Moses and his people— where is he who brought them through the sea, with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he who set his Holy Spirit among them,

Andrew Murray’s exposition of the Spirit of God being given by God as the Spirit of the glorified Jesus is however correct.  We will touch on it, later, in this article.

Thirdly, is the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Christ the same?

The answer is Yes.

Before we go further into explaining the “Yes” above

Let us talk a little about: Are Christ and the Spirit of Christ the same or NOT?  Now, there are those who argue that the Spirit of Christ cannot be the Holy Spirit, solely on the ground that Spirit of Christ is Christ – the same.  And so, Christ is now in Heaven with God (Father God) (that is what Scripture said), how can He still be indwelling us; or that Jesus spoke about Himself going back to God the Father, and another (implying NOT Himself) to come.  At the outset we discussed about God and Spirit of God, and said although God is God and the Spirit of God is God, yet in personhood they are two, meaning God can be in one place and the Spirit of God can also at another.  It is the same with Christ and the Spirit of Christ; Christ can be in Heaven, seated with the Father God, while His Spirit (Spirit of Christ) is also elsewhere.  In other words, in personhood, Christ and Spirit of Christ are two (yet are part of one God).

Is the Spirit of Christ a fourth entity or personhood?

The answer is No.  The Spirit of Christ is still the same third person of the Godhead – the Holy Spirit who is the Spirit of God.

We have already covered some of the verses supporting the saying that the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of God are the same; are there scriptures pointing to the Holy Spirit or the Spirit of God is also the Spirit of Christ?  Yes, below are some:

Gal 4:6 - Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.”

Romans 8:9-11 - 9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him {God; Father God} who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit {Spirit of God} who lives in you.

Eph 1:13-14 - 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him {Jesus} with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

1 Pet 1:10-12 - 10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them {the prophets} was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

He, the Apostle Peter, was even saying the OT prophets were having the Spirit of Christ in them, in their time (OT time).  We know from various accounts of the prophets in OT, it was the Spirit of God that commonly came to the prophets, and gave them words of prophecies.  As a side, in OT, the Spirit of God could come upon, and into or in the OT people, but the Spirit was NOT indwelling as such. 

Peter was saying with the Spirit of Christ or the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit, giving revelations, the prophets spoke about things to come, concerning the Messiah or Jesus Christ, and then these things had come to pass, and then, in form of the gospel, were preached to us all, by the Holy Spirit. 

Why “by the Holy Spirit”? The gospel is spiritual, and Scripture revealed that spiritual things need to be spiritually discerned with the help of the Holy Spirit, especially when the non-believers were weak or not yet quickened.

What the above points to, is that the Holy Spirit or the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ are the same. 

Can it really be, that the Spirit of God is also the Spirit of Christ? 

Is NOT the Spirit of God, of God; are we saying, the same Spirit, is of Christ, now? 
Yes.  One way to view this, is that Scripture said that Jesus said it, that everything of the Father, the Father has given to Him:

John 3:32-35 - 32 He {Jesus} testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33 Whoever has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34 For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit. 35 The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands.

Matt 11:27 - “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. Luke 10:22- “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

Scripture also recorded this (John 13:3): Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;  

Jesus said this in John 10:30 -  I and the Father are one.”

The Jews hearing that, wanted to stone Jesus, for His claim; John 10:33 -  “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

Jesus then said, in John 10:38, “………that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.””

How could Jesus claim this – that the Father and Him are one, or that the Father was in Him, and He in the Father? 

Because the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit was given Him, Jesus, without limit or measure (John 3:32-35; quoted above).   

John 10:37-38 read: 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

Now, Jesus was doing the works of the Father (Father God); in fact, Jesus repeatedly claimed He was doing the Father’s works.  How could He be in full agreement with the Father? 

Because the Father had given Him the Holy Spirit without limit or measure.  In other words, the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit of God had become also the Spirit of Christ.  I believe the Apostle Peter had also known that, when He wrote those verses of 1 Peter 1:10-12 (quoted above), concerning the Spirit of Christ  in the OT prophets. 

Again, how did Jesus know what God wanted done or was in full agreement with God? 

1 Cor 2:10b-11 said these:  10b The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.   Jesus knew the thoughts of God because the Holy Spirit, when given to Him, has become His Spirit or the Spirit of Christ.  The Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit is therefore, one and the same – the Spirit of God.

[Added: 10 Jul 2013 - Perhaps, Jesus did hint when He spoke about the giving of the Spirit to indwell the disciples in John 14.
John 14:15-18 -

15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

In the text above, there are clues:  In verse 18, Jesus said He would NOT leave the disciples as orphans, but would come to them.  In other words, Jesus was hinting that the Counsellor would still be Him, coming by spirit, as the Spirit of Christ. 

Additionally, to me, it is also possible to argue that verse 17 was even talking about Jesus Himself (the spirit of Him; in the first place, Jesus was NOT of human spirit, for He was conceived of the Holy Spirit; To me, He came into the fullness of His Spirit when the Holy Spirit came upon Him after His water baptism).  Was NOT Jesus with the disciples, and they knew Him, and He lived with them, despite the world NOT seeing Him or knowing Him.  Jesus said (and prophet Isaiah did prophesize) there were those who see but NOT seeing; hear but NOT hearing.  Such would NOT know Him, and such formed the world.  Jesus said those who believe unto Him, are no longer of the world, although still in the world (John 17:14-18).]

We have the mind of Christ in the person of the Spirit of Christ within us - 

1 Cor 2:12-16 - 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord {LORD} so as to instruct him {Him}?” But we have the mind of Christ.

In other words, the mind of Christ is in the person of the Holy Spirit or the Spirit of God.  Now, it also means: It is NOT, now, you have your mind replaced by the mind of Christ, but it is you have to listen to the Holy Spirit in order to be in agreement with Christ, or you, be of wanting what Christ Jesus wants.

There is even a verse in Scripture that said it all, the Triune God is manifest in Christ Jesus - Col 2:9 (KJV) - For in him {Christ Jesus} dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

Everything that God (the Father God) had given to Jesus; that included the Holy Spirit.  As a side, it is still to be understood that the Holy Spirit or the Spirit of Christ, is a person separate.  God is a personhood, the Son, Jesus, another, and the Spirit of Christ or the Holy Spirit or the Spirit of God, a third personhood.

Andrew Murray’s view on the Spirit of Christ

In the above, I agreed to talk a little more on Andrew Murray’s view on the Spirit of Christ:

John 7:38-39 (KJV) - 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

As a side, I want to say, we should recognise that there was an interim period between the clear OT and the NT eras – the time of Jesus ministry on earth.  In that time, Jesus had come (first coming) but he was NOT crucified and resurrected yet, and so, NOT yet glorified.  But in that time there were people who believed unto Him; the Apostle Disciples were examples.  Jesus had the fullness of the Holy Spirit but Holy Spirit was NOT given to indwell any of the then disciples, including the Apostle Disciples.  There would be occasions of the Holy Spirit coming upon them and even in them, but such were still of like-nature to that experienced by the OT people like the prophets of old, NOT indwelling (Indwelling I believed happened after Jesus reappearing after resurrection – John 20:22).

In the 2 verses above of John 7, the stream of living water was said to be referring to the Holy Spirit, but during that interim period, believers were NOT yet given and having them, because the Holy Spirit was NOT given YET.  Jesus had NOT been crucified and had NOT been resurrected; in other words, Jesus had NOT been glorified YET.  Before Jesus went to the Cross, He told the Disciples to wait for it, the Holy Spirit.  This is how Andrew Murray put it: When poured out at Pentecost, He {the Holy Spirit} came as the Spirit of the glorified Jesus, the Spirit of the Incarnate, crucified, and exalted Christ, the bearer and communicator to us, not of the life of God as such, but of that life as it had been interwoven into human nature in the person of Christ Jesus.

I believe Andrew Murray’s point is that the Spirit of God was the Spirit of God, in the OT, but in the NT, the Spirit of God is also the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of the resurrected and glorified Christ.  For us, currently living the mortal life on earth, the Holy Spirit is the bearer and communicator to us, NOT of the life of God as such, but of that life as it had been interwoven into human nature in the person of Christ Jesus.  Christ Jesus has always been the Son of God; but the resurrected and glorified Christ, is NOT just the Son of God, but also the Son of Man, the first-begotten from the dead, clothed with that glorified humanity which He had perfected and sanctified for Himself.  And just so the Spirit of God as poured out on Pentecost was indeed something new - Andrew Murray put it as He (the Spirit) acquired the proper name, Holy Spirit.  I would rather say, the newness was in that the Spirit has taken on the dimension of being the Spirit of Christ.

This thought opens up to us further the reason why it is not the Spirit of God as such, but the Spirit of Jesus that could be sent to dwell in us, according to Andrew Murray.

Christ came to bring men again into the fellowship of the Divine life, which we lost because of sins, to make us partakers of the Divine nature. He did this, NOT by an exercise of Divine Power on man, but only in the path of a free, moral, and most real human development. In His own person, having become flesh, He had to sanctify the flesh, and make it a meet and willing receptacle for the indwelling of the Spirit of God.

Having done this, He had, in accordance with the law that the lower form of life rise to a higher, only through decay and death ,in death both to bear the curse of sin and to give Himself as the seedcorn to bring forth fruit in us. From His nature, as it was glorified in the resurrection and ascension, His Spirit came forth as the Spirit of His human life, glorified into the union with the Divine, to make us partakers of all that He had personally wrought out and acquired, of Himself and His glorified life.

In virtue of His atonement, man now had a right and title to the fullness of the Divine Spirit, and to His indwelling, as never before. And in virtue of His having perfected in Himself a new holy human nature on our behalf, He could now communicate what previously had no existence -a life at once human and Divine.

From henceforth the Spirit, just as He was the personal Divine life, could also become the personal life of men. Even as the Spirit is the personal life principle in God Himself, so He can be it in the child of God: the Spirit of God's Son can now be the Spirit that cries in our heart, Abba, Father.

This part on Andrew Murray’s teachings is taken from his exposition centering on this - 'The Spirit was not yet, because Jesus was not yet glorified."

As extension, my own supposition which you can wonder about, flowing from what happened to Jesus, that upon His resurrection and glorification, He was with newness of who He was - that He NOT only became back the Son of God, but also He became the glorified Son of Man, with His man-spirit glorified into union with the Divine – the Spirit of God, we, when we enter into our sharing of the Lord’s glory, when we pass on, we too, perhaps, could be seeing our spirit glorified into union with the Divine  - the Spirit of God.  It is indeed glorious, awesomely glorious, if it is so, won’t you agree!

Jesus Himself, gave us a glimpse of His newness, in this manner, before His going to the Cross –
John 16:12- 15 - 12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

The Holy Spirit is spoken as the Spirit of Truth.  The Spirit of God is the Spirit of Truth.  God is Truth.  Jesus said when the Holy Spirit came (He was yet to come, for Jesus was NOT yet glorified), He would guide the disciples into all truth, just as Jesus would, when He was with them. 

The Holy Spirit would NOT speak of His own, but speak only what He hears; hear from where?  Hear from the Lord Jesus, that was what was said by Jesus, in verse 14 above.  Does the Holy Spirit NOT hear from God (God the Father)? I believe the Holy Spirit hears from the Lord, and it is also that the Father does know what the Lord instructs, and it is unlikely the Lord Jesus is (or would be) in any disagreement with the Father. 

Why the Lord instructs?  Because all that belongs to the Father was already given to the Lord, said verse 15 above.  Jesus Himself, said, that was why the Spirit would receive from Him what He, the Spirit, would make known to the believers.  Of course, when we pray to the Father God, all the same, the Lord also hears it, even as the Father hears it.  What all of these also point to, is that the Holy Spirit or Spirit of God is also His (Christ’s) Spirit.

Emmanuel, God with us,  is still true

Then, in the interim period when Jesus was walking on earth, He was with the people as a Man; since then, it is still Emmanuel, God with us; this time it is He is with us, as the Spirit of Christ.

John 14:16-17  - 16 And I {Jesus} will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate {Comforter, Counsellor, Helper, Advocate}  to help you and be with you forever—17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

Who sent the indwelling Spirit, the Father God or the Lord, Christ Jesus?

The Father God is correct; the Lord, Christ Jesus, is also correct!

John 14:16 - And I {Jesus} will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate {Comforter, Counsellor, Helper, Advocate} to help you and be with you forever

John 14:26 - But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

John 15:26 - “When the Advocate comes, whom I {Jesus} will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.

John 16:7 - But very truly I {Jesus} tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I {Jesus} go, I will send him to you.

We say, “sama-sama”, same-same.  The indwelling Spirit is the Spirit of God, and so, is from Him, God the Father; and the indwelling Spirit is also the Spirit of Christ, and so, is from Him, Christ Jesus!

Finally, let it be clear, the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, and the Spirit of Christ is one and the same.

Anthony Chia, high.expressions

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Carbon-dating and the Bible

Is the earth more than a couple of thousands of years old? What about the dinosaurs, said to be roaming the earth millions of years ago?  We find once in a while, an article claiming such and such, from a few hundreds of thousands of years ago, or even millions or tens or hundreds of millions of years ago, were found. And then somewhere in the article, some carbon-dating jargon is often thrown in, giving the impression that everything was very scientifically established.  And true, most of us, go away, after reading such articles, with a nagging question in our mind, “But Bible seemed (seems to us) to suggest, the earth was only a few thousand years old; how come we have such discovery by scientists – inconsistency or what?”

C-14 dating

There are other forms of radiometric dating, but this article centred mostly on carbon (C-14) dating. Radiometric datings are used to estimate the ages of fossils, and indirectly giving indication of the broad age of the earth.  If one finds a billion years old object on earth, the reasonable extrapolation is that the earth was in existence a billion years ago (assumption, the object did NOT come from outer space).

Carbon-dating is specifically used only on fossils, here taken to mean, remains from things that were once organic, meaning it was alive, and fed, and the food could finally be traced back to plants, through the food chain.  And so, it is NOT exactly to be used on rocks, but would be used on wood fossils trapped in rock; and it is also used on animal or creature’s fossils, trapped in rock, and even in ice.  It can also be used on very, very old trees.  It can be used on coal and diamonds, too, as these were fossilized from trees and such.  It is NOT used on rocks as such, because of the inherent workings of the method – its very basis is radioactive decay of C-14.  This will be apparent when we look at how carbon-dating works.

A little bit of science, first

Although I once ambitioned to be a medical doctor, and I did NOT go that way, I was a “straight As” Biology and Chemistry student in my college years.  Until today, I still remember and understand much about Biology and Chemistry stuff, including the basic structure of matter.

The basic building blocks of matter, element (we called it), are the atoms, and each atom consists of protons and neutrons in the nucleus at the centre, and electrons, orbiting the nucleus. When we talked about carbon-dating, we have to touch on radioactive decay, and for this, we have to know what isotopes are.  Isotopes are variants of an element.  Each element has a definite number of protons; for the element of carbon, it is 6. It is the no. of neutrons that can differ; carbon can have 6, 7 or 8 neutrons.  Each of these combinations is called an isotope. Of the 3 isotopes of carbons, C-12 (6 protons + 6 neutrons), C-13, and C-14, C-14 is radioactive, and is subject to what we called radioactive decay. 

Radioactive decay happens at a consistent rate (fairly accepted), the measure used by scientists, for this, is called the half-life.  When C-14 or the radioactive carbon is fully decayed, it turns into Nitrogen (N).  What is half-life?  It is the time it takes for the isotope to be half-decayed, and for C-14, it is 5,730 years.  Yes, it takes 5,730 years to decay by half; and for it to decay by another half, to be ¼ left, it takes another 5,730 years (or another half-life).  This decay will go on and on, until the C-14 is fully decayed into a Nitrogen atom (Nitrogen-14; 7 protons & 7 neutrons {1 neutron became the additional proton}).

The table below shows the radioactive decay process, showing only the elapse of up to 7 half-lives. Starting with 100%, after 7 half-lives, the percentage remaining is small, and after 10 half-lives, the decay is almost done, and what remains, may NOT be detectable by present instrumentations.

Number of half-lives elapsed	Fraction remaining	Percentage remaining
0	1/1	100
1	1/2	50
2	1/4	25
3	1/8	12	.5
4	1/16	6	.25
5	1/32	3	.125
6	1/64	1	.563
7	1/128	0	.781

Beyond 50,000 – 60,000 years, the methodology fails

For C-14, which is the key isotope in the carbon-dating, the half-life, as I have given above, is 5,730 years.  It means that after 7 half-lives have elapsed, 40,110 years would have elapsed; after 10 half-lives, 57,300 years would have passed by.  This means that, C-14 carbon-dating can be used to measure elapse of time up to about 60,000 years, and no more!  The simple reason is that after about 60,000 years, there is NOT the C-14 anymore, whatever C-14 would have become N-14 (Nitrogen).  After about 8 – 9 half-lives, the C-14 is so little that current instrumentation could hardly detect it. So, those reports claiming/implying that C-14 or carbon dating resulted in their conclusion that a find or object, was more than 60,000 years old (some put it to 50,000 years), are NOT correctly portraying a finding.

60,000 years is still a long time; Biblical indication is the earth is probably 6,000 – 7,000 years old!  But at least, we know that C-14 dating cannot be used to argue the earth could be millions of years old; simply the method cannot measure beyond 60,000 years!  Where does the notion of the millions of years, if NOT billions, comes from?  Well, it came from the secular (evolutionary) worldview. The evolutionary worldview interprets the universe and world to be billions of years old (Today we won’t talk about this evolutionary worldview).

The faulty assumption?

To narrow down further, and to explain there are assumptions made, in the use of C-14 decay in the dating methodology, that can lead to inaccurate results, we need to understand a little more of how the C-14 dating works.

I have explained above that there are 3 isotopes of carbon naturally occurring: C-12, C-13, and C-14.  C-14 is the one which decays whereas C-12 and C-13 are stable. We also have said that when fully decayed, C-14 is changed into N-14.  However, at any point in time, in the air/environment, there is still a certain ratio of C-14 to C (C-12 + C-13 + C-14).  {C-13 could be omitted from the ratio}

Since C-14 is constantly decaying, will NOT the earth run out of C-14, eventually; and at the meantime, the ratio would be diminishing?  The answer is no, because C-14 is being added into the atmosphere, even as it decays.  How is it added? The rays from the Sun which contain high levels of energy bombard the earth’s upper atmosphere. These rays collide with atoms in the atmosphere and can cause the neutrons from the atoms to come off. Such neutrons could collide with Nitrogen-14 {7 protons & 7 neutrons} atoms (the atmosphere, mostly of nitrogen and oxygen) and convert them into C-14 atoms (changing a proton of N-14 into a neutron) {C-14 being with 6 protons & 8 neutrons}. C-14 then combines with oxygen in the atmosphere to form carbon dioxide (CO2); which gets incorporated into plants through photosynthesis, meaning, plant as food, contains C-14 and the other Cs.  Because plant is at the base of the food chain, and as well as living things take in air as they breathe, living things, as long as they are alive, they are having the same ratio of C-14 to C, in them, as the atmosphere.

Now, I said, at any point in time, there is still a certain ratio of C-14 to C.  And so, if today, I take a sample from you, and analyses it using AMS (Accelerator Mass Spectrometer), I will get a certain ratio of C-14 to C.  3 years from now, assuming you are alive, and I repeat the analysis, I will again get a reading.  This reading will be the same as that taken 3 years ago, if the atmospheric C-14 to C ratio is still the same, and the environment you in, has remained the same (without a nuclear explosion, for example, for such would definitely change the C-14 to C ratio of the air or environment).  The C-14 to C ratio in our body or that of any living thing gets refreshed all the time, and if the environment is in a steady state, then, as long as a particular living thing is still alive, the C-14 ratio is the same.  It is the moment that the living thing dies, that it stops taking in C-14 into his body; whatever C-14 in the body/fossil, decays, without replacement.  C-12 & C-13 remained the same.  Over time, the C-14 ratio will decline to zero.  Of course, it will take a long, long time, since the half-life of C-14 is 5,730 years.

Now, if we lengthen the time, and say, 2,000 years ago, I have taken a sample from a dying tiger, and calculated the C-14 ratio, and kept it; and today, I dug up the fossil of that tiger, and do another C-14 ratio, I would be come to the same conclusion as my written record of the tiger’s death, that the tiger died 2,000 years ago, according to the extent of the radioactive decay of the C-14 in the tiger.

In practice, the problem is that no one took and kept the C-14 ratio records of the old fossils (in those times, they died) which we discover or dig up, every now and then.  To know the extent of decay, we need to know the C-14 ratio at the time of death of the living thing, which I have said, in all old fossils, we do NOT know, because there are no records.  Scientists used the 1950 (that was the time C-14 dating was adopted)’s C-14 ratio as the default ratio, assuming that, that was and is the steady state C-14 ratio, of the atmosphere, across all time, over all places!  Now, that is a huge assumption that can introduce miles of margin of error!

No, C-14 ratio, to start with, is NOT constant across time and places

We will NOT go into great details, the factors that point to huge margin of error possible, but here are a few of them, with simple explanation:

1.      The production rate of C-14 is known to be 18.8 atoms per gram of total carbon per minute; and the decay rate is known to be only 16.1 disintegrations per gram per minute. It means C-14 ratio is on the rise.  It means, ceteris paribus, C-14 ratio 5,000 years ago, was a much smaller number than the same, today.  When we assume the starting C-14 of specimen at its death, the same as currently (or as the 1950’s standard), we will have inflated the extent of the decay by a huge margin, possibly tens of thousands of years!

2.      The production rate of C-14 might have been varied or disrupted across time, even as the atomic radioactive decay has remained the same.  Remember now, we say C-14 was created through the bombardment of cosmic energy rays on Nitrogen atoms in the atmosphere. Solar flares across time could have affected this process. Any weakening of the ozone layer over the Earth, could have also allowed more energy rays through and greater C-14 could have been resulted.  If ozone has thinned, it means rate of C-14 production has increased with time, meaning recent C-14 ratio would have been much higher than C-14 ratio of few thousand years ago. There is a magnetic field around the Earth which serves to protect the Earth from harmful radiation from outer space; and this field is also weakening or decaying.  Scientists are now tracking this weakening.  When more rays got in, it meant also that the production rate could have increased over time, contributing to higher C-14, and so, it would lead to over-statement of the extent of decay, and accordingly the age of the specimen in question. The industrial revolution could have upset the C-14 ratio.  Nuclear explosions affect the C-14 ratio of the atmosphere, too.

3.      The Genesis Flood (4,400-4,500 years ago?) was a massive event, and a divine event.  What changes it introduced into the atmosphere and our entire ecosystem, no one could fully know, but it is possible many “forces” of nature could have been disrupted or recalibrated or re-entered into flux.  For those of us who believe the accounts in Scripture, such a saying is entirely acceptable, for Bible even have an account that God stopped the Sun from setting for one day!  The Flood was of epic proportion; not our usual heavy rain with flood following.  In Genesis 7, we read that the floodgates of Heaven were opened, and all the springs of great depth burst forth, these lasted 40 days and 40 nights, with the entire earth submerged, eventually. The C-14 ratio prior to The Flood, during and after, could very well be very different.  What actually happened in the atmosphere in those days, when the heavens were opened; who knows?! But obviously that Flood was an important cut-off.

Re-visits showed too much misrepresentation

More recent re-visits of very old samples have shown many of the previous assertions of age of the samples were erroneous.  Scientists have reviewed the assumptions used in estimating the ages of the samples.  

For example, fossilized wood samples from rocks which have been previously dated to be from various ages of some tens to hundreds of millions years old (according to the evolutionists), when re-tested showed significant, detectable levels of C-14, meaning, they cannot be more than 60,000 years old.

Tests were done on coal layers that, according to evolutionists, again dated millions to hundreds of millions of years old, from samples collected from major coalfields. The samples again were found to contain measurable amounts of C-14, meaning all were within 60,000 years old.

Tests were also done on diamonds, and C-14 was found in them! Diamonds have traditionally been considered to be so old - millions to billions of years old, by evolutionary standards, these results of finding C-14 in them would be strong support for a more recent creation.

Refinement of C-14 dating possible

Remember, we said that some 60,000 years is still very far from the 6,000 – 7,000 years that the Bible is indicating to us, of the age of the earth.  Can C-14 be refined to capture more accurately, the age of fossils or finds?  The answer is yes, to some extent, at least for things post the Genesis Flood, but it needs the scientific community to be willing to work together to establish a series of re-calibrated C-14 ratios for use.  Let me explain a little:

The problem with the methodology is that we do NOT know the C-14 ratio at the time of death of the living thing that has fossilized.   The use of 1950 or current C-14 ratio is far from satisfactory; a better estimate of C-14 ratio to use (as the C-14 ratio at the time of death), should be arrived.  And it can be established with the help of actual historical records; and the reason I said, “at least for things post the Genesis Flood”, is because, most records would have been destroyed by the Flood.  If we can find some record of a living thing existed and died, say, 5,000 years ago, and we also happen to have the fossil on hand (maybe, the wood from a grave of a known age by historically reliable document(s)), we can mathematically, work backwards to obtain the C-14 ratio of 5,000 years ago. Other objects with reliable historical documented dates included the Dead Sea Scrolls, Minoan ruins and tombs of the pharaohs; these could be used for calibration, too. Using a basket of such agreed C-14 ratios would yield better results.  For example, for the more recent testing of the coal layers that was mentioned above, when more realistic C-14 ratio (derived for period around the Flood) was used, the ages of the coal deposits could be reduced to about 5,000 years, instead of the 60,000 years!

Today you know!

Knowledgeable and truthful people have come to understand C-14 dating can be useful up to 4,000 to 5,000 years, using calibrated C-14 ratios (from objects/artifacts of known age).  Why 4,000 to 5,000 years only, is because of the absence of reliable historical documents to help to work backwards, C-14 ratio of periods further back than the 4,000 to 5,000 years ago, and that was because of the Genesis Flood.  In any case, the greatest problem with radiometric dating, including C-14 dating, is the absence of knowledge of the (starting) C-14 ratio in the sample or fossil.

Some people go to the extent of saying C-14 dating support the young-earth view (of 6,000-7,000 years old).  I wouldn’t go as far as that, for as said, there is always an unknown, the C-14 ratio, at the ancient point in time.  Any proxy we used, are proxy calibrated from information of about 5,000 years old, and no older, and so, the methodology is good only for time as far back as about 5,000 years. The methodology is limited by the available proxies, but it does NOT point to the earth is only 6,000-7,000 years old.  C-14 dating does NOT necessarily say that it is impossible that the earth was in place earlier than 5,000 years. 

The many ages, given in textbook and journals, of old artifacts, etc, are in fact, men’s subjective assignment of ages within the broader framework of evolutionary geologic time scale framed by evolutionists.  The evolutionary worldview is quite well entrenched, and often people just plucked in, those millions and billions of years period, into an article of an old find, just to make the story, “sexy”.

What about the dinosaurs?
Are dinosaurs really of millions of years old, as we are commonly being told by the evolutionists, tacked along by the many so-called experts? Maybe, not, you-know!  Here is an article you can read for yourself - http://www.icr.org/article/6084/

Anthony Chia, high.expressions – Dinosaurs mentioned in Bible, you-know!?

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